This all got started when Trent Loos made a comment on his Facebook page about not attending the World Dairy Conf.
Us farm kids were talking about how to increase milk consumption through advertising and merchandising when a vegan jumped into the discussion. Sorry this is long but you will be entertained. And I have changed the vegan's name to protect her identify.
VEGAN: I am confused: here we have a culture embedded with the "eat meat, drink milk" mantra. Everywhere I go I am bombarded with these messages, and I cannot go anywhere without seeing trucks carrying animals, destination: death, packaged animal corpses, the scent of decomp as people bar-b-que the murdered animals, commercials, magazine adverts, ... billboards, fast-food establishments around every corner, etc., etc., etc., all bombarding me with the "eat meat, drink milk" message, and you get pissy over one poster? How absolutely ludicrous and prejudicial is that??? Let me ask you, by the way, what happens to the male babies? Have any of you ever had human breastmilk? Does that sound ewy to you? When I breastfed I offered to pump some for people, and the response was always one of revulsion, yet you'll drink the scummy, pus-infected secretions of animals who live in squalor, eating crap, slaughtered in reprehensible manners in hideous places? Really? Why not hire women to milk themselves? Would you be supportive of such an idea? At least they would have the choice and compensation if chosen.Nice message, CJ. Thanks for remembering me on a Saturday night. I make a lasting impression, don't I? Cannot help but think of me when espousing the illegitimate, murderous manners of animal food production and how I'll fight you people until the day I die?
TRENT: Whether you choose to admit it or not the value of milk meat and eggs to the human body are scientifically documented. Fortunately we both live in a country were we have the right to choose to keep our bodies in state of denial if you so choose.
ME: Obviously you've been brainwashed and don't really care for the facts. You're buying a line of lies without researching the facts or thinking for yourself--the declarations you made in this thread aren't even an accurate description of the dairy industry. The smell of animals means nutrition to me. If you're hungry enough, someday it will smell like sustenance to you too.
VEGAN: XX, feel free to care less even more and not send me messages about eating horses.The value of a vegan diet has been established as having a beneficial impact on health and lowering the risk of certain cancers.How many animals did you kill today, Trent and Jody?... And, Jody, brainwashed is the definition I provided above and it is YOU who has fallen into the typical stereotyped animal corpse eater. I think outside the cruel box. Furthermore, Jody, the "declarations" I have made are indeed FACTS that I have derived from the USDA and have them for your perusal if you would like. Also, what happens to the male babies? Jody, the smell of animals means nutrition to you? Do you know how perverted that sounds? Do you have cats, dogs, hamsters...?
TRENT: Oh Vegan I am glad you reminded me of the male bull calf thing...You are implying that they are harvested for veal calves as babies...less than 20% of the dairy calves born go through any veal program... but more importantly veal calves weigh 500 lbs when they are harveted that is hardly killing a baby. The rest of dairy male calves are fed to normal fed cattle weights of 1400 lbs...NO Baby killing happening here.
"veal calves weigh 500 lbs when they are harveted that is hardly killing a baby."Pure semantics: how old are they, Trent? And, yes, then they are killed. "The rest of dairy male calves are fed to normal fed cattle weights of 1400 lbs.."... Before they are killed...
ME: Only a small number of bull calves are born today thanks to scientific advancements, that I'm sure you disapprove of too. But I won't bother to explain since you know all about the dairy industry. I wouldn't want to bore you with facts you already know. Call me perverted, but I'll be eating meat tomorrow because I believe it is the ...best source of protein and many essential nutrients--taking any supplements in your vegan diet? I don't have pets. I have livestock being grown to become food. There's a difference between pets and livestock.
Oh and Vegan, Do your pets live in the house?
Vegan: "But I won't bother to explain since you know all about the dairy industry."I get my facts from what you would call unbiased sources: the industry and the USDA. "There's a difference between pets and livestock." ... That is so hypocritical, Jody. They are all animals. And did you know that reducing or discontinuing animal-derived food consumption lowers health risks? And you people baffle me with the ease and indifference you consider animals: born only to die unnecessarily so, living in horrific conditions, brutalized, suffered, exploited. You have to accept that when there is an option between kill or not, your moral obligation is to go with compassion and not kill. And you think I am brainwashed.
ME: I don't consider the USDA unbiased. Name your sources and let's compare what we know. You're obviously very passionate about what you believe, but I'm not seeing any facts. You're just name-calling in your arguments: hypocrite, pervert and murderer. That's a pretty typical argument of the anti-meat folks in America. I have seen the reports about reducing health risks, by reducing red meat intake, but usually they are accompanied by a retraction. If you want to debate that, again, start naming your sources--I would be happy to put names/dates behind what I know. About 85% of U.S. grazing lands are unsuitable for producing crops--since you like the USDA that's where it came from. Grazing animals on this land more than doubles the area that can be used to produce food. It is not suitable for growing vegetables or plant material that sustains human life. Figure out how humans can digest grass and we're in business, but until that time, people must eat meat, milk, eggs, etc or they will not get the calories they need to survive.... Read MoreDiary bulls--Thought Trent had provided some good stats, but since you asked again. Using technology less than 10% of calves born are bulls. (From a report from Cornell University.) You do need a few bulls. My moral obligation is to feed the world, and you can't do that on a plant based diet. So I am calloused in preferring that an animal die so many people can live. I know I can't convince you that steps are taken to ensure the animal doesn't suffer at the vast majority of farms or facilities. There's too much hidden camera footage from the poorly run facilities in our industry that will back up what you believe. But I've seen it done differently and better than what you think happens. Yes animals die to become food. I know you won't believe this of a murdering hypocrite, but I do care about the health and welfare of the animals in my care. But you can't convince me that they should serve a different purpose than to feed people. I'm logging off. Would be happy to debate more tomorrow.
VEGAN: Are you disputing the fact that animals are killed? No matter what you say, believe, or profess, the fact is that animals are killed: killing is inherently inhumane. You claim to want to feed the world, congratulations, it's not working. "I do care about the health and welfare of the animals in my care." That's what you claim, but as long as ... Read Moreyou are killing animals, you cannot possibly care for them other than as objects to further your motive. "But you can't convince me that they should serve a different purpose than to feed people." Yes, same old meat-eating rhetoric. "people must eat meat, milk, eggs, etc or they will not get the calories they need to survive." Really? Seriously? Prove it. "Grazing animals on this land more than doubles the area that can be used to produce food" Do these animals not require water? Or are these magical animals who do not produce any waste?Here is one link to poultry and the numerous conditions they are exposed to:http://usda.mannlib.cornell.edu/MannUsda/viewDocumentInfo.do?documentID=1497
ME: Yes, I murder animals to satisfy my motive of feeding people. That's the only motive I have, because we sure aren't getting rich by farming.
Had expected more from you today than again calling me a murderer or hypocrite. Would have been nice if you had put forth some stats that I could have countered. The chicken report is stuff I already know.
You want proof that people need meat? I'm sure you won't believe any of this, but here it is.
Like I said yesterday, much of the world's surface is suitable for growing grass, not plants for human consumption. By 2050, the UN says, our planet must double food production to feed an anticipated population of 9.3 billion people. If we can't grow stuff people can eat on a large portion of our planet, we need to feed animals, so they can be turned into food. If you have another idea I would love to hear it.
Here is why we need meat. Protein--Tofu has 8 grams per serving to beef's 28. We're going to have to grow a lot more beans if we need to satisfy everyone's protein needs with them alone. Nuts range from 6 to 10 grams. That's a lot of trees.
What will all that extra farming do to the environment and water supply? And do you need me to cite a nutritionist who says that plant protein isn't as high in value as animal protein? They're all over if you Google natural protein source. Plant sources other than soy are incomplete proteins which means they don't contain all 8 amino acids. And if you're taking soy in high amounts it can block the absorption of other nutrients.
Where can you get more B-12, Zinc and Iron than you can in beef? It's not a plant. It's a pill. My naturopathic doctor says those nutrients are not well absorbed when taken in pill form. You've seen the experiments were they drop a vitamin pill into water. Kind of the same principle.
So I think I've come back with some numbers that are well documented. Better documentation than anything you've come up with so far.
I get that you think killing animals is wrong under any circumstance. I think animals are an important part of the food chain here to serve the nutritional needs of an ever growing population.
We'll never agree. I know I'll never convince you and you'll never convince me. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this topic with you.
That's where I left it with her. I used to let this stuff go. I know I won't change her--or any hard core animal activist's opinon. But I am being more vocal in defending our industry.
If you are in ag, and not following Trent's blog or on twitter @trentloos you should be.
Ten years later: the rest of the story - This morning I found myself in a reflective mood thinking back to mid-July 2008 and one of the most hectic weekends of my life. I blogged about it at the t...